Gaffney joined WDUN’s
Gaffney joined WDUN’s “The Martha Zoller Show” Tuesday to talk about his new book – See transcript below.
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Martha Zoller: [00:00:00] It is The Martha Zoller Show. And, you know, I was reflecting on the whole China relationship because we just celebrated the 100th birthday of Henry Kissinger. And he’s widely, you know, credited with opening up China. And in another life, when I was a buyer, I was one of the first people in our company to do business with China. And this was back in the 80s. And I learned then how dishonest they were in business practices because they you had no recourse. You bought from them and they got paid upfront if the stuff was delivered defective. You didn’t have any recourse. And that’s when I kind of started learning about the fact that they had children doing this work, that they didn’t have the same kind of rules that we had related to things. And I started thinking about that whole situation. And my old friend Frank Gaffney, who is one of my oldest friends in radio, he is the author of “The Indictment: Prosecuting [00:01:00] the Chinese Communist Party and Friends for Crimes Against America, China and the World.” And he joins us right now. Frank, welcome back to the program. How are you?
Frank Gaffney: [00:01:11] Well, it’s been a long time, but I’m doing reasonably well considering the circumstances, Martha. And I’m glad that you’re still very much in the fight and happy to have a chance to talk with you about an issue I’m very concerned about.
Martha Zoller: [00:01:23] I took about six years off after I ran for Congress and worked for Governor Kemp and then for Senator Perdue. And so I wasn’t doing any media. And then in 2019, I had the opportunity to come back to where I started and start doing radio again. And I’ve been having a blast ever since. So it’s been great.
Frank Gaffney: [00:01:42] Oh, praise the Lord.
Martha Zoller: [00:01:43] Yes. Thank you so much. So give us just an overview of really what people need to know about China and why you wrote this book, “The Indictment.”
Frank Gaffney: [00:01:56] Well, it starts really where you had those [00:02:00] original insights. Martha this is a system, and I’m not going to impugn all of this to the people of China because I think that it’s first and foremost a problem with the regime that miss rules them. And it’s really not so much a political party or even a government. It’s a transnational criminal organization, the Chinese Communist Party that we’re up against. And it is inherently dishonest. That’s the way criminals are. You know, it is playing by different rules. That’s the way criminals conduct themselves. And what we’re dealing with as a result of now decades of this criminal enterprise engaging in what they have called. Unrestricted warfare against America for the purposes of taking [00:03:00] us down. Long before they had the means to do so militarily. That has given rise to what we call eight of the charges in this indictment against the Chinese Communist Party. Yes, but also their friends here in the United States who have enabled much of that warfare, crimes that include in addition to, you know, things like economic warfare against us, political subversion, against us energy warfare, against us biological warfare against our country, taking down our military and so on, again, aided and abetted by our own elites. That has been compliment by the first of the charges, arguably the most egregious of them all, and [00:04:00] one that is so instructive to us that we ignore it literally at our extreme peril. And by that I mean the lengths to which the Chinese Communist Party has gone to murder and otherwise harm its own people. And they consider their own people to include the Tibetans and the Uighurs and the Southern Mongolians. Now, the people of Hong Kong as well, though none of those folks do think of themselves that way. But but 100 million people have been murdered by the Chinese Communist Party, I think is the best estimate.
Martha Zoller: [00:04:38] And that’s what we know of.
Frank Gaffney: [00:04:38] And that doesn’t include. Yeah, that doesn’t. But, Martha, that doesn’t include 400 million that they’ve killed in the womb.
Martha Zoller: [00:04:45] It is the Martha Zoller Show. And it’s always great to have Frank Gaffney here. He has worked on national security issues at every level throughout his career. And he is the author of the new book “The Indictment: Prosecuting the Chinese Communist Party and Friends for Crimes Against America, China and the World.” And we were talking about the number one thing, which is what communist countries do is they kill their own people. And we think it’s 100 million, but it could be more than that. You look at the 20th century and the people that were killed because of communism and it runs into that millions, hundreds of millions of people, and we’re on that path again. As it relates to China, what are some other things, Frank, that people need to know about China? And then the more important thing is what do we do?
Frank Gaffney: [00:05:36] Well, if I could just finish that last point. Sure. Because we, the Chinese Communist Party has itself boasted about killing 400 million infants in the womb. So this, in addition to the 100 million or so, is an unspeakable horror, unprecedented in human history. But the reason why it is especially important is think about it for a moment. Any [00:06:00] government that treats its own people that horribly is not likely to treat ours better. So that sort of sets the stage for the rest of the indictments in this nine count charging sheet. And the idea is basically to give the American people a structure in which to understand what the Chinese are up to, what they have been doing, the damage that is entailed, and who’s been helping them do it. And to your second point, you’re absolutely right. This is not a book about just admiring the problem. I mean, we think it’s a very important context for thinking about what we do about it. But we also have 20 specific steps that we recommend in the indictment that are actionable and that, frankly, need to be taken if we are to survive our country. In the face of what the Chinese have [00:07:00] been doing to us to date and the distinct possibility, Martha, that what they have in mind for us next is the old fashioned kind of warfare, not the unrestricted pre kinetic kind, but the actual violent door shooting war sort.
Martha Zoller: [00:07:15] And I’ve heard, you know, a number of defense experts talk about this in terms of the Pacific War. I mean, that people are preparing for something called the Pacific War. And we’re not prepared at this point in time for that. And we saw that. I mean, I think the only good thing that’s come out of Ukraine is that we’re ramping up production now of of of of weapons and things like that, where we had been sort of standing in a corner acting like nothing bad was ever going to happen again.
Frank Gaffney: [00:07:50] Yeah, well, that’s the good news. The bad news is that we’re behind the power curve. As they say, the production base is not what it needs to be. And [00:08:00] we’ve depleted the stocks of a lot of the stuff that we need to help defend Taiwan against a Chinese invasion and for that matter, do what we need to do to protect ourselves. Because one of the things that’s in this book, which I think is really vitally needed, is an understanding, in the words of a general who was 20 years ago, the defense minister of China. His name was General Chiao Chen. And he said to a closed meeting of senior party figures that there’s going to be a lot of talk about Taiwan, but the main enemy is the United States and that we will be addressing that threat as well. And the the threat includes, by the way, according to the unrestricted warfare doctrine that was laid out back in 1999 by two senior colonels in a book by that name is [00:09:00] that the Chinese will use biological warfare against us. And in fact, they have in Covid 19 specifically. But there may be worse in the offing.
Frank Gaffney: [00:09:12] And this Chinese leader at the time, back in the early 1990s, Deng Xiaoping was his name. Uh, gave the order to the Chinese–illegal, by the way–for a biological warfare program to depopulate the United States to enable it to be colonized by China. So, these people going back to those war crimes and crimes against humanity, I think are evil in the extreme. This is a spiritual war at the end of the day. Martha, I know you appreciate that very much and that this is one that the evil that is incarnate in the Chinese Communist Party [00:10:00] has been doing horrific damage to us war crimes, as we call them, but may have worse in mind. So these action steps are the kinds of correctives that are clearly needed. And I’m prayerful that people in your audience will take a look at the book and more importantly, you know, share it with the people elected to represent them, because some of this we can do as individuals, you know, the choices we make. And and, you know, relying on supply chains from China of cheap goods and the like that basically.
Martha Zoller: [00:10:34] We paid a very high price for cheap goods. Let me ask you two questions, Frank. Let me ask you two questions because and they’re a little bit devil’s advocate questions where, you know, we relate to the party in World War One, we had to ramp up. We were late to the party in World War Two. We’re the type of country that we really don’t want to believe the worst about people. And we tend to underplay [00:11:00] our enemy’s hands, but then we end up getting on the right side of things and ramping everything up. What do you say to people who say, well, we’ve been here before and we can handle this?
Frank Gaffney: [00:11:12] We’ve never faced an enemy as formidable and as determined as this to eliminate the United States of America. This is an unprecedented time. And I would just say, Martha, that if you look at the lengths to which the Chinese have gone to make us dependent upon them. To establish beachheads all around the world, including some even here in our own country. You know, we hear about buying up farmland and putting up facilities near strategic installations across the United States. We’ve had balloons traipsing across our country, collecting intelligence and perhaps preparing for an attack. [00:12:00] We’ve seen the Chinese preparing at home as well for such an attack. All of this, you know, means that if you’re late to this particular party, there may not be a party. Right. And you may not be at the party by the time that this has dawned on you that it’s not fun and games.
Martha Zoller: [00:12:21] And then the other part is that, you know, our whole strategy of how we have waged war since World War II, you know, when my father was deployed to World War II, he was deployed until it was over. And and that gives the generals incentive to actually win the war. And my definition of winning a war and putting boots on the ground is that you have annihilated your opponent to the point where they surrender. That is what victory is. Since World War Two, we have done these one year deployments and we have we’ve had the generals change every, you know, the leadership change pretty much every year. And it’s like [00:13:00] a whole cycle of all these one year wars, whether you’re talking about Korea or Vietnam or the global war on terror, for that matter. And and we’ve we’ve got to change the way we look at things. We’ve we’ve got to look at war as one. If we put boots on the ground, we’ve got to have a definition of victory. And in my view, victory is that the other side surrenders. That’s what victory is. That’s the way China’s going to approach it if they decide to launch this war against us.
Frank Gaffney: [00:13:30] You bet. You’re absolutely right about that. And I think for reasons that you’ve mentioned, probably among others, the failure to wage war in that manner has led to failure, not so much on the battlefield. Our forces have done magnificently, you know, despite a lot of political misleading. But it’s the case that we have not won any of those wars since World War Two. And at best, [00:14:00] it’s been kind of a standoff. But at worst, I think as in Afghanistan, you know, we were defeated, we’ll stop. And that has only emboldened the Chinese to believe they can do the same.
Martha Zoller: [00:14:10] We know now we could have avoided those 13 soldiers, Marines being killed because they had the person in their sights and they weren’t given the go ahead to take them out. And then, you know, and that’s just horrible. Frank Gaffney, you can get the book at Amazon. It is available. It’s called “The Indictment: Prosecuting the Chinese Communist Party and Friends for Crimes Against America, China and the World.” And we’ll have you back on because we need to talk about the whole financial side of this, too, because we owe a lot of money to the Chinese. We are raising our debt in order to pay the interest on money that we’ve borrowed from the I mean, it’s a mess. So we’ve got a lot more to talk about this. We’ll have you on again. Thanks for being with me.
Speaker3: [00:14:53] I look forward to it.
Frank Gaffney: [00:14:54] Thank you, Martha. God bless you.