Frank Gaffney: China’s crimes against America and how to prosecute the CCP | The Carl Jackson Podcast | May 23, 2023

China’s crimes against America and how to prosecute the CCP w/Frank Gaffney


THE CARL JACKSON PODCAST – See transcript below.


Carl Jackson: [00:12:26] Thank you. Yeah, I mean, it is fascinating. And you’re absolutely right. I look at obviously the Hunter Biden laptop story. We know that Joe Biden is the big guy. Our leaders are obviously compromised. But beyond being compromised, as you said here, Frank, I mean, it’s almost as if our military leadership–and Joe Biden certainly–are on their or on their team. It’s the weirdest thing.



Carl Jackson: [00:00:40] Welcome to this edition of the Carl Jackson Show podcast. This is your daily dose of objective truth in a world of confusion and lies. Guys, I’m honored to have with me today my guest, Frank Gaffney. He’s the executive chairman and founder of the Center for Security Policy. He’s out with a new book, It’s Come Out or it has been released [00:01:00] on May 9th of this month, obviously May 9th of this month. It’s called the Indictment Prosecuting the Chinese Communist Party and Friends for Crimes Against America, China and the World. Frank Gaffney, welcome to the Carl Jackson Show podcast.

Frank Gaffney: [00:01:17] Carl, I’m so pleased to be with you. Thank you for having me.

Carl Jackson: [00:01:19] Absolutely. You know, Frank, one of the things I did early on is I looked you up and right away there were some, uh, you know, I did a Google search of you and there were conspiracy theorists, blah, blah, blah, this and that. And I was like, Yeah, this is the guy we need to have. On If the left hates him, we love him so.

Frank Gaffney: [00:01:39] Well, I’m your man.

Carl Jackson: [00:01:41] But, you know.

Frank Gaffney: [00:01:42] Yeah, look, hater, racist, bigot, you name it, I’ve been called it. And, you know, I’d like to think actually, Carl, that I was canceled before “canceled” was a thing because it goes back to kind of I think the 1990s they were after me because of what we were talking about in terms of jihadism and the threat that it [00:02:00] represented. And you can’t do that, of course, you know, now now it’s China.

Carl Jackson: [00:02:04] It’s so it’s so and we’ll get to that in just a second. But I do want to go back to the the point that you just made. I mean, you were cancelled before being canceled became a thing. It’s fascinating to me, Frank, that so many Americans, regardless of their political affiliation, seem to just want their I just want to be blind. It’s insane to me. Your response to that?

Frank Gaffney: [00:02:32] Well, look, the Southern Poverty Law Center, which has been a principle hate group powering a lot of this, is the outfit that most of these folks have defaulted to, whether it’s in the media, whether it’s in, you know, political circles, academia as the the guide on what is actually acceptable and what is unacceptable. And it’s just a political [00:03:00] warfare instrument. It may have had, you know, in its heyday, some good work done on the Ku Klux Klan, but basically it’s been going after people it doesn’t agree with politically on the right, some in the center, some completely innocent bystanders, really to suppress views that they don’t approve of. And others have been happy to pile on, including, by the way, the Muslim Brotherhood back in the day. So I you know, there are many people now and you’re clearly one of them who regard the kind of well mow mowing that they do as evidence that the contrary is the case, that this is somebody that you ought to be listening to or at least taking information on board from. And I’d like to think that more and more Americans are now in that space rather than cowed into thinking, oh, I can’t pay attention to somebody whose views are vilified by the Southern Poverty Law [00:04:00] Center.

Carl Jackson: [00:04:00] Yeah, I do believe that is the case. And I honestly, this is this is random here, Frank, But I got to be frank, I think with the. I got to be frank. Frank, I’ll be frank with you. Be frank, too, with with Tucker Carlson being removed off of Fox News. He’s still an employee. They’re still getting a paycheck. I think it does wonders for networks like yours and programs like yours on and online journalism. Now, from the conservative perspective and from a biblical perspective, frankly, I think, you know, people are fed up with legacy media feeding us what we should and should not hear. So so I well.

Frank Gaffney: [00:04:45] Look from your lips to God’s ears. I hope that’s the case. And, you know, podcasts like yours as well are sources of information that people need to be exposed to. And, you know, I don’t know about you. There’s a hole in my life at 8:00 on weeknights and, [00:05:00] you know, a lot of other Tucker Carlson products as well. And I honestly didn’t agree with him on everything, but most things that were important I did. And it was really important for all of us to have that as a source. But fortunately, there are other sources. If people have the wit and the will to go look for them at 8:00 at night or otherwise.

Carl Jackson: [00:05:18] Yeah, absolutely. You’re right. I’m not going to lie. For the first time in many years, I discovered what it was like to just sit at my backyard or on my lanai and look up at the stars. Frank So it was. Yeah, what a concept. Okay. I’m speaking of Frank Gaffney again. He’s the executive chairman and founder of Center of the Center for Security Policy. He’s the author. Of the new book, The Indictment Prosecuting the Chinese Communist Party and Friends for Crimes Against America, China and the World. You can find the book at the indictment The indictment The indictment Frank, real quick. You worked under Reagan for the Reagan administration. [00:06:00] What was what was that like? What was what was he like?

Frank Gaffney: [00:06:06] Well, I confess, I didn’t interact with him a whole lot, but I certainly had the privilege of working under him and under his direction for about four and a half years. And that was extraordinary. I mean, I’m fond of saying that it’s all been downhill from there career wise, honestly. But look, you know, the thing about it was that I not only had the privilege of working for one of our greatest presidents, if not the greatest, I not only had the privilege of being there at a very important time in our nation’s history where he was really bringing us back to life across the board, domestically and internationally. I just happened to have one of the most important portfolios at that moment, both as a deputy assistant secretary for nuclear forces and arms control policy. And then I acted for seven months as the assistant secretary [00:07:00] for international security policy, which was really the Defense Department’s senior position working the Soviet account. And of course, that was under Reagan about taking the place down. You know, and I had a small role in doing that front seat on all of the nuclear arms negotiations and nuclear weapons buildups, deployments to Europe, missile defenses. It was a fantastic learning experience and a great privilege to serve. And I really mean it. It was probably the high point of my life.

Carl Jackson: [00:07:34] Wow. That’s absolutely fascinating. Obviously, I mean, I just go back and I remember him as president and my dad, who is absolutely apolitical. I mean, the guy, sadly, the first time he ever voted was for Obama. And then within two years, he said he regretted that being his first vote.

Frank Gaffney: [00:07:54] Buyer’s remorse. Yeah.

Carl Jackson: [00:07:56] Yeah, it was really fascinating to see. But I [00:08:00] was fascinated with him because he always had a fondness for Ronald Reagan. Yet, you know, he didn’t vote for Reagan. It was a it was the weirdest thing. But he would always talk about Reagan as an actor and how he was doing pretty good as president. And it’s like he was proud. So I was I didn’t realize he made.

Frank Gaffney: [00:08:19] Us all proud Carl. That’s a really important insight. Oh, that’s cool. And, you know, there were obviously people who didn’t agree with his policies, but I think by and large, everybody had an affection for him. The Gipper. Yeah.

Carl Jackson: [00:08:29] Yeah. I mean, even today, looking back at some of his older clips, the way that he was able to weave in policy with just his quotes, his humor, his I mean, he the guy was just absolutely fascinating. Okay. All right, Frank, let’s get right into your book here. Again, he’s the author of the “Indictment: Prosecuting the Chinese Communist Party and Friends for Crimes Against America, China and the World.” The Chinese Communist Party can and must be thwarted, according to you and its determined bid to crush [00:09:00] liberty, destroy our country and institute what Xi Jinping calls “global governance” directed and enforced from Beijing. Why is it that so many Americans seem to be oblivious to this threat the Chinese Communist Party or not seem to care, in your opinion? Frank Gaffney?

Frank Gaffney: [00:09:22] I think that to some extent it’s just that we do what people do in democracies. You know, we concern ourselves with our own immediate lives and businesses and circles of influence, and we trust people that we elect and are otherwise in leadership positions to, you know, look out for the things that they’re responsible for. And I would argue, Carl, the single most important thing in this book, which we call, as you say, the indictment. And we identify as one of the charges in that [00:10:00] indictment against the Chinese Communist Party or CCP, is the extent to which as part of its what they call unrestricted warfare against us, they have made a priority of another term. They use elite capture. And by that they mean essentially. Getting their hooks into business leaders, leaders of the financial sector, most especially academics, media, Hollywood and, of course, not least, our political elites. The commander in chief of the United States military, unfortunately, being the poster child of the whole enterprise. And what we’re looking at as a result is people that we normally would turn to, to tell us when things are getting perilous or to take steps to prepare our country and help us contend with such dangers are [00:11:00] not only AWOL, absent without leave.

Frank Gaffney: [00:11:04] They’re not on our team. They’re batting for the other side. So I think a lot of Americans who would otherwise be very much engaged are simply being misled, even though and this is a key point to Carl, you know, there’s a famous expression about conservatives being liberals who were mugged by reality. Well, an awful lot of us were mugged by the reality of another of the things we charge in this book, which is the Chinese Communist Party deliberately unleashed a biological warfare attack against our country. A million plus of us have died as a result of both it and the vaccines and the other lockdowns and other nonsense. But the point is, even though we’ve been mugged by reality, I think we’re still expecting that somebody in [00:12:00] charge is going to explain to us what’s going on here. And we keep hearing from Joe Biden that there’s nothing to see here, folks. They’re just competitors. And, you know, not bad folks, folks and all that.

Carl Jackson: [00:12:11] Yeah, I mean, it’s astonishing. You bring up this term elite, “elite capture.” And I had heard Peter Schweitzer, I think, talk about that for the first time. You know, some years back or what have you. But it is red-handed.

Frank Gaffney: [00:12:25] Yes.

Carl Jackson: [00:12:26] Thank you. Yeah, I mean, it is fascinating. And you’re absolutely right. I look at obviously the Hunter Biden laptop story. We know that Joe Biden is the big guy. Our leaders are obviously compromised. But beyond being compromised, as you said here, Frank, I mean, it’s almost as if our military leadership–and Joe Biden certainly–are on their or on their team. It’s the weirdest thing. Do you think that’s because of corruption or do you think it is because of just elite capture? [00:13:00] Maybe they’ve been bragged. What I mean, what is it? I don’t understand why? They know communism is a threat. China is a threat. But yet they’re just, “it’s hands off.” It’s the craziest thing I’ve ever seen. Yeah.

Frank Gaffney: [00:13:16] Well, you know, there’s an interesting theory going around since you’ve touched on it there about the laptop that actually Barack Obama is the big guy.

Carl Jackson: [00:13:24] That’s a good point.

Frank Gaffney: [00:13:25] Not Joe Biden. And look, this is the third term of the Biden excuse me, the Obama Biden administration. What we are looking at now is simply the natural progression, indeed the the metastasizing of much of the damage that was done in the first two terms of these characters. And I think when you talk about the military in particular, Barack Obama made a point, you know, he talked about fundamentally transforming America on the eve of his first presidential election. And the [00:14:00] military was one of the last institutions that fell to the radical left as it marched through all of them. It has purged the ranks of the military. It has promoted people who were willing to do what they were told by, you know, the political elites who have been captured and the commissars that they’ve insinuated into the military. So I kind of put them in a separate category. But, you know, look, we’ve been governed for most of the past 20 years by people who are really radical leftists. Right? I think it was a little less obvious during the Obama terms one and two. But now that he’s gotten his wish and he said this publicly, that I’d really like to just run things but not be out there in front.

Frank Gaffney: [00:14:53] This has taken it to the radical extremes that you’d expect from, you know, a community [00:15:00] organizer out of the the playbook of rules for radicals, you know, and that’s where we are. So all of this is at work. And then on top of it, most of those Marxists are aligned with and some actively working with out of ideological reasons or. Repay our mortal enemy, the Chinese Communist Party. So all of that is putting us in a very serious world of hurt. And that’s why with this book, we’re we’re anxious to not only explain what’s going on here, what the charges are, first of all, the crimes against humanity and then the what we call war crimes against our country, that both China, the Chinese Communist Party, that is, and its friends in America, the elites they’ve captured have done to our people. And then as importantly as anything, Carl, we’ve got 20 specific items in terms of action steps that are needed in light [00:16:00] of all of this to try to get us out of the hole we’re in and save our country.

Carl Jackson: [00:16:04] Frank, let’s let’s go back and go through some of this Again. I’m speaking to Frank Gaffney. He’s the executive chairman and founder of the Center for Security Policy, author of the new book The Indictment Prosecuting the Chinese Communist Party and France for Crimes Against America, China and the World. You can get the book at the indictment The Indictment The indictment Frank. I fear that cultural Marxism has played a large part in us not being able to identify our enemies, China being one. Um, but you identified nine criminal charges that can and must be brought against China. Will you identify some of those but also in identifying them? Part of my concern is that people won’t take these charges or criminal charges against China seriously because we’re so distracted [00:17:00] by this cultural Marxism. America is evil. Maybe America deserves to be brought down. Your take, if that makes any sense here. I know I spit out a lot.

Frank Gaffney: [00:17:10] It makes perfect sense. It’s, in fact, the playbook that the Chinese Communist Party and its friends are pursuing. A couple of quick points just by setting the stage for this, Carl. One is we think that properly understood the Chinese Communist Party is not a political party or even a government in the normal sense of the word. It is a transnational criminal organization.

Carl Jackson: [00:17:44] Wow, that’s good.

Frank Gaffney: [00:17:45] So it flows from that that what we’re dealing with is a series of crimes, criminal behavior, if you will. And I start with the the. Phenomenon of crimes against humanity for [00:18:00] two reasons. One. They’ve never been inflicted in the history of mankind. On a scale remotely as egregious as the Chinese Communist Party has by some estimates, and I think they’re right, 100 million people, mostly Chinese, but also Tibetans and Uyghurs and Southern Mongolians. Now, Hong Kongers have been horrifically oppressed, in many cases murdered outright by the CCP over the years. That’s important for two reasons. Well, let me just add, that doesn’t count, by the way, the 400 million. That the Chinese Communist Party actually has boasted of murdering. Wow. As babies in the womb.

Carl Jackson: [00:18:48] Great point.

Frank Gaffney: [00:18:49] So this is on a scale that’s just simply unimaginable. But why? It’s particularly important. It’s not just that this is a moral, you know, outrage again, of unprecedented [00:19:00] proportions, but it is. Inconceivable if you just think about it, that the Chinese Communist Party is going to treat us better than its own people. If it can get its mitts on us. So we start with that, but then we go to this series of eight other what we call charges for war crimes that drill down on eight different sort of lines of attack that the Chinese Communist Party has been engaged in against us for decades under the rubric of, again, what they call unrestricted warfare. This is all pre kinetic stuff, though. That biological warfare thing is in a special category. But all of these, basically, Carl, were laid out in a book that two senior colonels published, obviously with the permission of the party back in 1999. And arguably they started engaging in it, you know, a better part of a decade before [00:20:00] that. But whether it’s economic warfare, whether it’s, you know, subversion, political warfare, whether it’s energy warfare, whether it’s biological warfare, whether it’s taking down our military, whether it’s elite capture and on and on. These are all things that they have done with terrible consequences for our people. And what we’ve done is draw upon about 75, 70 or 75 now webinars that our committee on the present Danger China has conducted. You can find them all for free, by the way, at present. Danger In fact, if you get the book, we’ve got them all listed and QR codes that enable you just to pull them right up and watch them yourself if you like them. But we’ve tried to take the highlights of those 70 odd webinars and make them accessible to the average audience. That’s not going to watch 70 or 100 [00:21:00] or 120 hours. Give us that website again.

Carl Jackson: [00:21:02] Frank. I want to make sure that I write that down and share.

Frank Gaffney: [00:21:05] Absolutely. It’s present danger. It’s the site of the Committee on the Present Danger: China. I’m the vice chairman of it. But, it’s a marvelous resource for the webinars and a lot of other content besides if you really want to understand what it is we’re up against. But again, it’s not enough to just understand the threat. That’s the first action step and vital it’s not enough even just to start responding to it by doing sensible things like getting on a war footing, given that these guys are at war with us. Right. But especially–in light of the fact that we’re now, I think, on notice that they’re not interested in simply the pre-violent or kinetic kind of warfare they’re interested in a shooting war with us–we have 18 other specific recommendations, including [00:22:00] rooting out those who are working for them in our elites, because for heaven’s sakes, Carl, you can’t possibly, especially in a shooting war, be led by people who are working for the other team.

Carl Jackson: [00:22:14] This is so insane to think, Frank. I live here in central Florida, and Governor Ron DeSantis recently signed into law where the Chinese Communist Party can’t buy our farmland. I mean, they literally had farm concept. Yes. I’m like, I can’t believe I mean, I can’t believe this. I’m glad he did it, but I’m like, this should have never happened in the first place. And I’m sitting here thinking we endured the “Covid war,” if you will, against us, the lockdowns, that tyranny and all that kind of crud. And I’m thinking we’re still buying products from China. A lot of our emergency supplies, our medical supplies, [00:23:00] I’m like, this is I don’t even know what to ask, Frank. This is just insane. This is insane, national suicide.

Frank Gaffney: [00:23:09] But it’s also the plan, economic warfare, as it has been waged by the Chinese Communist Party against us, has had as its purpose creating. Dominance in the marketplace by the Chinese Communist Party. Dependencies upon them, their supply chains we hear about a lot all the time. You’re right. Medicines, for heaven’s sakes. This is insane. From our perspective, it makes perfect sense from theirs. And to the extent that they’re now preparing for war and I mean shooting war, one of the things we’re watching them do is choke down on those supply chains so you couldn’t be more right. We’ve got to get out from under that arrangement, diversify our sources of supply, and better yet, reassure them as urgently as possible. It’s vital for our [00:24:00] national security.

Carl Jackson: [00:24:01] Frank, do you think that Americans have become perhaps too spoiled? Like I mean, we where we can’t even recognize what is an obvious threat?

Frank Gaffney: [00:24:15] Yeah, you know, there’s a lot of talk about that biological warfare attack and the fact that with our help, our technology, our money, our forces and so on, they were genetically modifying just [ordninary] old bat coronaviruses to make them more lethal and transmissible to humans. Right? Well, to your point, I think that we’ve been witnessing–for decades now–a kind of gene modification of the body politic in our country to essentially remove, if you will, the genetic code for. Well, just survival. [00:25:00] You know, the most basic survival instincts seem to have been weaned out. And we’re yes, we’re luxuriating in cheap goods from China. Some of them made with slave labor. As long as they’re available and cheap, we’ll take them. And we don’t care that they’re essentially destroying America’s industrial base or other, you know, businesses, for that matter. But it’s in part I go back to what we said at the beginning of this interview, Carl, if your leadership doesn’t actually say that’s not a good idea, folks. Yes, it’s very seductive. And yes, it may even be for the moment, saving you a few pennies here and there. It’s bad for America. Well, that gene modification takes hold and you pass it on to successive generations who, by the way, with the [00:26:00] help of things like TikTok. Right. Are being told, well, not only is it okay, China is much to be preferred over the United States. The United States is systemically racist and a horrible country and so on, and sure enough, buy China, depend on China, like China, you know, follow China becomes all too much the norm.

Carl Jackson: [00:26:22] Frank. I’m speaking of Frank Gaffney again. He’s the executive chairman and founder of the of Center for Security Policy. He’s the author of the new book, excuse me, “The Indictment: Prosecuting the Chinese Communist Party and Friends for Crimes Against America, China and the World.” You can get the book at [00:26:41] The [00:26:47] He also spoke of an organization that he’s the vice chair of the And those are what would you describe those as [00:27:00] again here, Frank?

Frank Gaffney: [00:27:03] We have a series of some 70 plus now webinars that we’ve conducted over the past 11 months or so, each of which is really a jewel. But they look at two specific issues in detail the nature of this unrestricted warfare, what it looks like if you just have the wit to wonder and search it out and what it’s done to our country during the period that it’s been prosecuted. And then secondly, and as important, really, who’s been helping them do it? And to what effect. And it’s chilling stuff. I have to say. We’ve again kind of distilled the essence of it, I think, into the book so you can get a short course on it that way. But it’s well worth taking a look at them online as well.

Carl Jackson: [00:27:53] All right, Frank, we only have a short period of time left with you. I got to be honest with you. I’m absolutely fascinated by this interview. I [00:28:00] have not checked out that webinars. I’m going to be checking out some of the webinars at I have not purchased the book. I’m going to be purchasing the book. I think China is our premier and threat. We’ve been talking about cyber warfare when it comes to China. But I agree with you, Frank. I think these people are ready for they will come to America and they will freaking kill us if we continue, you know, down the road that we’re aren’t using arms if we continue down the road that we’re headed towards. Okay. So we talked about some the some of the criminal charges against China. But in your book, “The Indictment”, again, “Prosecuting the Chinese Communist Party and Friends for Crimes against America, China and the World.” You also lay out 20 specific actions that are required to punish China. And let’s pretend, Frank, that we actually get a president that cares [00:29:00] about America in 2024 and, Lord willing, more governors, local officials, so on, etcetera. What needs to be done? What are some of those action steps that we need to take to fight back against this this Communist Party that literally wants to end America as we know it?

Frank Gaffney: [00:29:19] Yeah, great question. Just a quick prelude. One of the things that’s in the book and that is vital that people understand is in connection with that biological warfare attack. That’s right. In the list of action items that these two colonels were recommending. And one of the things we’re told from a leaked transcript of a speech that was given by the then defense minister of China 20 years ago, is that Deng Xiaoping, the former general secretary of the Chinese Communist Party, had ordered that illegal, by the way, biological warfare program to have as its mission. Depopulating [00:30:00] the United States so it could be colonized by China. So that’s what we’re up against. Understanding that is the first step.

Carl Jackson: [00:30:08] Open borders, fentanyl, one of the first things that comes to mind.

Frank Gaffney: [00:30:11] Well, and you know what else is coming across that border? Carl? I believe Chinese military personnel. A hundred a day or so. And as you were saying, their job is to kill us If they get in here and they are getting in here. By some estimates, there are five battalions worth of special operators who have come into this country so far. Okay.

Carl Jackson: [00:30:33] I got to stop you there, Frank. So you don’t you don’t think these are ordinary Chinese citizens that are coming across the border trying to flee the Chinese communist regime? There’s a…You are convinced that maybe a good portion of these people are literally or could be literally Chinese military personnel.

Frank Gaffney: [00:30:55] Well Carl, this is one of those things. Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes? We’ve got reports [00:31:00] coming from friends working in the Darién Gap and in Mexico with eyes on these guys coming through. And I’m not saying that all of those Chinese nationals that are coming here are as fit as young fighting age, that is, unaccompanied men with apparently identical backpacks and canteens and moving by what war correspondent by the name of Michael Yon says is seemingly based on his experience, both as a military, you know, personnel himself, a person himself, but also a war correspondent for decades. They’re moving as units. So this is a special subset, but you don’t need many of them. It took 19 people to bring us nine. 11, we recall. And these are guys who are sent in, we think, to wreak havoc inside our country at the same time as a war might be brought against us from outside. I hope I’m wrong about all of that, [00:32:00] but what I can tell you is I don’t think we’re wrong about the kinds of steps that need to be taken. Understanding the threat. Yes. Getting on a war footing. Yes. Rooting out the people who are elite captured. They cannot be allowed to stay in positions of leadership, whether it’s in government or whether it’s in the private sector.

Frank Gaffney: [00:32:18] It’s too dangerous in time of war, especially, we need to rebuild our military. Clearly, we need to get our energy mojo back after it’s been taken down by Joe Biden. Again, part of the plan deliberately so. We need, among other things, to recognize that biological warfare is almost certainly going to be unleashed again by the Chinese communists against us. We must mind our defenses and we must get a better plan than the one we had, thanks to the World Health Organization, by the way. And another part of this scheme, you mentioned, global governance is part of the agenda of the Chinese Communist Party. They’re working [00:33:00] assiduously as we speak to give the World Health Organization, which compounded enormously the damage done by that pandemic 1.0, to give it the authority not just to advise us about what to do the next time, but to mandate to make compulsory the lockdowns or the vaccine jabs or the, you know, masks and all the rest of it without our own government officials having any say in the matter. All of these are the sorts of things people will get, I think if they simply take a quick look at what’s arguing for action and then what some of these action steps are. And that’s just a partial list. There’s 20in total.

Carl Jackson: [00:33:46] Frank, this way. Last question here. This may be a stupid question. Can we even or should we ever look to the Chinese Communist Party as obviously we’ll never be friends, but is [00:34:00] this a government that we as the United States of America, could even hope to get along with in the future? Or do we just need to crush them, crush them and figure out where to go from where to go from there?

Frank Gaffney: [00:34:14] It’s not a stupid question. It’s probably the most important one you’ve asked and you’ve asked a lot of very thoughtful questions. It doesn’t really matter what we think. They believe there is no room, as they put it, in their colorful, colloquial fashion. There can only be “one sun in the heaven,” and that will be the Chinese Communist Party. And they are set on our destruction because, think about it, we’re the only thing really that stands in the way of their achieving their ambition. They believe their rightful place in the world is to dominate the whole thing. We have to be removed. We have to be destroyed. And by the way, [00:35:00] if that line is right, they need the lebensraum, as Hitler used to talk about, to take over new fertile territory when they’ve despoiled their own and they’re going to colonize ours. But we have to be eliminated beforehand. Maybe some of us will survive to be in servitude to them, enslaved by them as they’ve done with the Tibetans and Uighurs and so on. But I think the vast majority of us are expendable and have to be dispatched. And biological warfare is a way. They used to say this about the old neutron bomb back when I was a young man working nuclear weapons policy. It kills all the people, but it saves all the buildings. That’s true of biological warfare, too, if you think about it.

Carl Jackson: [00:35:47] Wow, That is. That is fascinating. I got to tell you, Frank, this has been enlightening to me in a scary way, frankly. But I’m sorry. This interview has been [00:36:00] enlightening.

Frank Gaffney: [00:36:00] We should have a warning. “This will terrify you.” Thank you for taking it aboard and again, for really thoughtful conversation with you. So appreciate.

Carl Jackson: [00:36:10] It. Listen, I appreciate it. If you could just hold on. We want to make sure that we don’t lose the recording here. We [00:37:00] need more American jobs and American manufacturing, especially given what you’ve just heard in this interview with Frank Gaffney. Please go out and get the get the book. Frank, I apologize. I did not get this book beforehand. I am going to get this book. Forgive me. The indictment. The indictment This needs to be a reference book, I believe, hopefully for future leaders of the United States of America that is going to take the Chinese communist threat seriously. The indictment The indictment the indictment Frank Gaffney, thank you so much for joining us today. I really do appreciate it.

Frank Gaffney: [00:37:55] Thank you, Carl. God bless you.